Terence McKenna: Anyways, it's 12:00 PM now.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: okay...

You: yep we can get started, i expect

You: people will keep wadnering in for a bit

You: so thank you all for coming, this si the 3rd week we have done this

You: and each time we have had a nice mix of new and recurring people

JeffreyOneWorld Runningbear is Online

You: so far we have decided to open sometimes with a short presentation

You: (hence the screens in front of you)

You: and sometime just get into discussions

You: this week we were going to do open ended discussioncs

You: hi northlight

Northlight Sodwind: Hi :-)

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: Hi Peace goddess, Bodger and Northlight.

You: so to start, can each person just give a brief intro with name, location and

interest/connection/whatever they like around sustaiinability?

faeryraindancer Ninetails: hi :)

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: hi faeryraindancer

You: i can start intros, since i talk alot

faeryraindancer Ninetails: lol

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: lol

You: I am Jessica in San Francisc, USA

You: and finishing a business degree in sustainability

faeryraindancer Ninetails: they have degrees in that?

You: personally though i am also really interested in how people connect and feel empowered

to do things in the RW and that SL might help

You: they do, wild no? fairly new, 5 years or so

faeryraindancer Ninetails: wow

You: greenmba is part of another program

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: :^))

Terence McKenna is Eugene from Munich, Germany, background in chem/biochem, interested in

sustainability from a transhumanist viewpoint

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: I'm on the east coast in Vermont, at a school named Marlboro

faeryraindancer Ninetails: cool

faeryraindancer Ninetails: michele in ohio usa...interested in all things environmental

PeterSan Slade: great

Northlight Sodwind: Im in the UK. Been involved at the grassroots of the env.movement for

years. Seen it change from haveing to explain everything to mainstream.

faeryraindancer Ninetails: cool

You: yeah, how great does that feel?

Bodger Brooks: I am Bodger, in Glasgow, Scotland, UK

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: yea, some of us were aroung before Gore :^))

faeryraindancer Ninetails: LOL

Bodger Brooks: I am invovled in developing Marine Policy, which inlcuddes sustainability and

consideringthe impacts of climate change from coastal errosion, migration of species, impact

on communitites and industries.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: Munich I've seen, never been to scotland

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: Bodger, are you a scientist working on this or learning about it?

Khannea Suntzu: Hey y'all

You: that's great Bodger, the issues on marine life really scare me

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: Hi Kannea!

Terence McKenna: Hi Khan.

Bodger Brooks: Policy maker

You: hi Khannea

Bodger Brooks: listening to all stakeholders :-)

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: great, there's astudent here who is looking at oceanic problems.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: could I give her your info?

Bodger Brooks: yes, of course

Bodger Brooks: but our work is more inshore/coastal than oceans

You: Terance, can i ask about transhumanist. what does that mean exactly?

JeffreyOneWorld Runningbear: (Hi all -- Not to be rude but I just got called into another

meeting so I'm going to have to run. So hi and bye! I'm Jeff with OneWorld in Denver, by the

way.)

You: well in 20 words or less i guess. ;-)

Northlight Sodwind: One of the more difficult sustainability problems. Coastal communities

get ignored.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: sorry you have to leave Jeff.

You: (hi/bye Jeff!)

JeffreyOneWorld Runningbear: me too. bye!

PeterSan Slade: bye jeff

JeffreyOneWorld Runningbear: see you next week.

JeffreyOneWorld Runningbear is Offline

In Kenzo is Offline

Terence McKenna: Jessika, for this purposes you can assume it's equivalent to a

technoprogressive.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: huh?

Terence McKenna: High-tech approaches to make humanity and ecosphere coexist.

Terence McKenna: Closed-loop material flows, renewable energy, people living in artificial

ecologies on and off-planet, etc.

You: Ah, ok!

PeterSan Slade: By the way I'm Peter Armstrong from OneWorld - I guess I know many of you.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: very cool!

You: yes, Peter our ever gracious host

You: :-)

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: he who makes it all possible!

faeryraindancer Ninetails: yay

PeterSan Slade: if you like Jessica the short video is available for those who didn't catch

it last week

Terence McKenna: Thanks, Peter.

You: Northlight, i saw you make a comment about coastel communities getting ignored

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: i missed it, i think.

PeterSan Slade: we could look at that for 5 minutes if you like.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: sounds good.

PeterSan Slade: ok it's on your screens now - just press play in the movie control

You: Sure, that was the video about virtual bali and how the SL tech

Northlight Sodwind: Just an obeservation realy. I think it comes down to votes and geography

PeterSan Slade: at the bottom of your window above mini-map

You: allowed many poeple to connect who couldn;t

PeterSan Slade: sure

You: Hmm, in the US interestingly the "coastal" areas probably have some of the most votes

You: but, and in this video i think it mentions that certainly that is not true for island

communities

Northlight Sodwind: coastal cities yes. Communities liveing from the sea. Not that Im aware

of.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: i have a black screen

You: ah, got it, you're right.

Terence McKenna: Is this Quicktime based?

You: growing up in new england i have seen the fishing industry change

Northlight Sodwind: I think i switched off my QT

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: is anyone seeing anything?

PeterSan Slade: yes

Terence McKenna: There has been a vulnerability problem, but I think if you installed an

update it's fixed now. I'm seeing the video just fine.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: not having a good day technologically!

Bodger Brooks: The impact on coastal communities is varried, but they appear to be the

"first" to feel the rl impacts of Climate Cahnge

Northlight Sodwind: ok, where the switch :-(

PeterSan Slade: bottom of your window above mini-map

Terence McKenna: Well, it's crude, GreenMBAGirl. And I don't know what the overall

ecological footprint of this circle is.

PeterSan Slade: click on the play icon

Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

Northlight Sodwind: I see the One climate text

Connected

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: it just keeps re-starting

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: peter, you sound good!

PeterSan Slade: tx

Terence McKenna: Well, at least my servers run CO2-neutral.

PeterSan Slade: this is Jeff who just left

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: Jess you look great!

faeryraindancer Ninetails wishes she had been on sl for the bali conference :(

You: oh wait, si this different from last week Peter? it looks like you added stuff

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: me too!

PeterSan Slade: no it's the same

Terence McKenna: Does this run in a loop?

faeryraindancer Ninetails: nice video :)

PeterSan Slade: it shouldn't but on some QT it seems to.

faeryraindancer Ninetails: lol it did on mine :)

PeterSan Slade: you can stop it with the control.

Bodger Brooks: A very impressive way to engage in the whole process

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: this looks so great peter, I'm so psyched you guys are doing this!

PeterSan Slade: hi tabitha - you found us :-O)

Bodger Brooks: congrats to yourself peter and the others involved in this

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: really professional looking

Tabatha Cale: hi

PeterSan Slade: tx

You: hi tabatha

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: hi tabatha

Bodger Brooks: It is certainly the way forward for such events

Bodger Brooks: Climate Change is dependant upon efficency savings in our daily lives

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: hi tabatha

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: it keeps stopping and restarting. I'll come by some time on my own and

watch it again.

You: yes, i made a presentation to other business students about second life

You: because consultants have the worst dang footprints, flying around!

faeryraindancer Ninetails: that's something I've been working on a lot bodger...right now

trying to find a balance between sustainablilty and the choices my medical conditions

require of me

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: yes, are you going to send that to me, or can peter put it up here?

Terence McKenna: Bodger, it seems a bit hypocritical to use SL to communicate, given the fat

footprint. But I guess it beats flying.

You: we need to find ways to connect and learn in this sort of environment

Bodger Brooks: I agree, but I try and make energy savings elswhere in mylife to enable me to

come on here

Bodger Brooks: it is all about trade off

You: Hmm, Terence does SL have a bigger footprint then other sorts of communications? well i

suppose more then email right?

Terence McKenna: More than email, way more than phone.

Bodger Brooks: An interesting research topic for a student

PeterSan Slade: As I understand it - there's only one server running this island

You: more then skype? it's the servers you are talking about, right?

Terence McKenna: You need a moderately beefy graphics card, lots of screen real estate, a

more or less fast computer, the Internet infrastructure in-between and of course the SL

servers.

You: yes, it is about trade offs

Bodger Brooks: They have found in the uk for all the energy savings they have made through

improved insolation of schools and the use of energy saving bulbs, that it has been sucked

up and more by the increased use of computer s in education

You: really? i'd like to see that report

faeryraindancer Ninetails: but it's better than if they hadn

faeryraindancer Ninetails: t made those changes

Bodger Brooks: yes it is always better

You: we are wokring on some stuf for municipaplities and energy efficiencys

Khannea Suntzu: I think this whole energy saving will be a selfdefeating proposition.

Consumers will just jack up consumption with whats saved. More efficient/smaller cars >>>

more cars.

Bodger Brooks: but how can we reduce our energy consumption?

Terence McKenna: In principle telecommuncation can become lots more efficient, but right now

not yet.

You: but we have to start moving backwards even in terms of consumption

Khannea Suntzu: I am really pessimist in this. There is absolutely no incentive to restrict

consumption in the capitalist system.

Bodger Brooks: and that is the system we work in

Nadezda Markova: high prices restrict consumption

PeterSan Slade: I'll put the youtube link up in a minute

Bodger Brooks: the solutions have to work in what ever system is dominant

Tabatha Cale: and with technology growing... we will always need more energy

You: right, for me it is the ease of flying the states that has to be dealt with before

people will change the way they do business

Terence McKenna: Well, it's not the amount of energy you burn, is the amount of energy from

nonrenewables.

You: right, good point, we need more renewables in the grid

Bodger Brooks: but it is the amount you burn, becasue there is not ennough renewable energy

sources built yet

You: but in the states at least that is an uphill batterl

faeryraindancer Ninetails: it's also about making wise choices about where you use energy

and tech

Khannea Suntzu: Yah quite. The only solution to all this is geometric growth in renewables,

if ya dont have it someone will always cheat. Burn coal, nuclear, like that.

You: (hi nadezda, have a seatt)

Terence McKenna: Well, my 0.7 kW 24/7/365 are renewable.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: hi nadezda!

Nadezda Markova: hi

Tabatha Cale: eolic, sun.... and the pitty of GMO maize as a clean fuel... wich is not my

favourite for the risk of GMo´´s contamination

Terence McKenna: Well, approaches like Nanosolar claim 2$/W panel right now.

Terence McKenna: Science Magazine claims crossover with fossil by 2012 latest.

Terence McKenna: 2015, sorry.

Khannea Suntzu: And when that happens it will cover the earth like a plague. By 2025 I can

see conservationist protest the chopping of wood forests to make space for solar forests.

You: which always makes me feel optimistic, except then i wonder if it is still soon enough

You: it would be a mix of solar and wind, no? Are wind costs going to catch up in comparable

time frame?

Terence McKenna: Wind is already cost-effective. Solar, not yet.

You: because yes, we can't cut down more forests

Bodger Brooks: Marine renewables is one of the big areas in the future

You: which takes us back to cutting consumption i think

Terence McKenna: Marine takes quite expensive structures, easily wrecked.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: I'm really interested in tidal power.

Nadezda Markova: what are the obstacles to developing wind?

Terence McKenna: There are no obstacles. Wind is huge in Germany, and most of EU.

PeterSan Slade: local people object to turbines

Khannea Suntzu: Wind, geo, tidal is limited. BIG but limited. Solar is unlimited.

Tabatha Cale: what about the maize fuel? U.S.A is investing a lot in that.... but it

involves other risks....

PeterSan Slade: in some cases

Khannea Suntzu: Biofuel is very limited and DANGEROUS as hell.

Northlight Sodwind: obstacles to wind. some real but mainly visual

Terence McKenna: Biofuels are pricing the poor out of the food market.

Khannea Suntzu: Wind is *expensive*

Bodger Brooks: I wouldn't say tidal is that limmited

faeryraindancer Ninetails: maize fuel is a crock of sheet...jacks up food maize costs, uses

pesticides to produce...

You: biofuesls are definitely not a long term solution

Nadezda Markova: seems like the US companies are resisting development of alternate fuel--

but question is whether they'll budge

Bodger Brooks: but offshore wind in the UK will be big

Terence McKenna: Bodger, the structures are very expensive.

You: yeah, really unhelpful just creates more problems

Northlight Sodwind: Bio fuels cant do it. We have to eat and wildlife has to eat. There just

arnt enough panets

Khannea Suntzu: Yah but tidal, wind is all very high in investments. Big machines. Solar

will become cheaper and cheaper by the year.

Tabatha Cale: yes.. but at the confeence of Bali, U.S.A proppose it as a solution... grrr

Nadezda Markova: biofuels aren't cost effective are they?

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: tidal is big machines?

Northlight Sodwind: Reducing wast. Useing that for fuel can help.

Terence McKenna: There's some promise from single-cell biodiesel.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: I've seen small ones only...

Bodger Brooks: They may be, but all electricity prces are rising

Khannea Suntzu: Tidal is HUGE machines, dikes and installations.

Bodger Brooks: as oil gets more expensive, renewables become less so

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: wow, didn't know...

Terence McKenna: Electricity prices will fall, once PV crosses over. By 2015, or so.

Bodger Brooks: Tidal can be offshore, coneced to the seabed

Northlight Sodwind: Biodisel from plancton may work. Its almost directly solar.

You: there is still a storage issue though, no, with solar?

Khannea Suntzu: Wind and tidal is needed, but only complimentary. We seriously need it

between now and 2025, after which it will be small peas compared to solar.

Bodger Brooks: it doesn't have to be on the coastal fringe

Terence McKenna: It certainly beats palm oil, and can work in saline environments, in the

desert.

Nadezda Markova: storage and distribution problems with solar, I think

Khannea Suntzu: The bastards that propose palm oil as s olution belong in prison.

Terence McKenna: Nadezda, what distribution problem with rooftop solar?

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: they now make solar pannels our of fabric

Nadezda Markova: not rooftop, but if you have centralized solar production, you need

distribution networks

Terence McKenna: If PV electricity is cheap enough, you can go water electrolysis, and fuel

cell for nocturnal lacunes.

Terence McKenna: Nadezda, excellent reason to *not* have centralized solar production.

You: the great thing will be if these new systems force energy to be decentralized. ;-)

faeryraindancer Ninetails: amen

Tabatha Cale: I live in Mexico... it is pretty hard to get useful solar cells here...

Terence McKenna: Exactly.

Bodger Brooks: but centralisation is what governments and companies will look at in terms of

developments

Nadezda Markova: can local facilities produce enough?

Terence McKenna: Bodger, you don't have to ask anyone to install solar on your roof and

facade.

Bodger Brooks: Renewables need the backing of government policy to succed

Terence McKenna: 0.6% of Germany's surface area can cover entire electricity demand,

domestic and industry.

Nadezda Markova: I agree with Bodger, the gov needs to be involved

Northlight Sodwind: Local my not produce enough to begin with but they / we are on the spot

to address reduction ass well.

Terence McKenna: Some 6% is already covered with structures, 12% is sealed.

Bodger Brooks: to generate teh volumes of power needed by countries will take more than a

few people puttin git on their roofs

Bodger Brooks: but I am not saying this is not a positive step forward

Terence McKenna: Nadezda, the government is involved, in some countries. But, once prices

fall enough the market will deal with it directly.

Bodger Brooks: but in the big picture it will be companies who will reduce our need on fosil

fuels by developing powerstations which do not run on coal oil or gass

PeterSan Slade: k - let's get you voice working for..

Khannea Suntzu: Just realize that without GROWTH in energy production, with both fossil,

nuclear and renewables combined, we are destined for a global and catacylsmic collapse.

Millions of people dying each year. The market and political systems will avoid that at

*any* cost. Including burning peat.

PeterSan Slade: your presentation next week.

Northlight Sodwind: The market GOT us here

PeterSan Slade: your slides are here and ready

Bodger Brooks: We got us here

Bodger Brooks: the market supplies us

PeterSan Slade: hi

Movies1963 Beck: hi

PeterSan Slade: come and join us

Terence McKenna: Northlight, right now the economic ROI on solar is some 50-70 years. PV

panel lifetime is some 25-30 years.

Northlight Sodwind: we made the market

You: Khannea, i don't follow your logic

Khannea Suntzu: What didnt you followe?

Bodger Brooks: therefore we must help steer the market to provide us, the consumer, with the

energy which we want

Terence McKenna: However, Nanosolar claims 0.3$/W panel in production, they sell it for

1$/W, and it would be 2$/W after installation.

You: that growth in the energy market is what would keep people from dying

Nadezda Markova: ROI?

Terence McKenna: This is cost-competitive with coal.

Northlight Sodwind: yes. and we are building houses with a design life of 25 years :-(

You: i think that we do replace it with other markets we want

Terence McKenna: Return ON Investment.

Terence McKenna: There's economic ROI, there's energetic ROI.

You: (ROI- return on investment)

Bodger Brooks: and teh market looks at economic roi

Khannea Suntzu: Our industrial societies are abolutely dependent on a steady growth of

available energy.

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo: here filmaker, have my seat.

Terence McKenna: We're hooked on cheap energy.

Bodger Brooks: agreed

Terence McKenna: It's like a crack habit.

Northlight Sodwind: then we know we are in trrouble

Tabatha Cale: haha

GreenMBAGirl Gumbo is Offline

Khannea Suntzu: Plus the third world needs energy to even come vaguely close to a quality of

life comparable to acceptable.

You: true, and that is the huge challenge to get businesses to see other ways of making

money and giving jobs to people

Northlight Sodwind: and theyl make sure they get it

Bodger Brooks: That is where the biggest issue lies

Khannea Suntzu: So growth is unavoidable. If bangladesh cant catch up they will shrug, give

the finger to any treaty they signed and start burning peat.

faeryraindancer Ninetails: problem is that "acceptable" is being defined as western

industrial

Terence McKenna: If solar PV breaks even by 2015 outside of spatial and temporal niches

growth of installed PV will be exponential.

You: yes, the developing world should get the energy they need for people to create their

lives

Bodger Brooks: developing countries and there want to use what is used in the west

Terence McKenna: It's a technological challenge. They must not get old technology, or the

world is in trouble.

Nadezda Markova: problem is the developed countries won't give up their level of dvelopment

and the undeveloped countries will insist on trying to catch up--

Khannea Suntzu: And everyone will fight, slowly and surely to get and get more. There is NO

going back.

Nadezda Markova: so it thas to extend to both markets

Bodger Brooks: a fChina is building around a new coal fired powersation every week

Khannea Suntzu: It is impossible.,

Terence McKenna: We don't have to give up anything if we play it right.

Tabatha Cale is Online

Bodger Brooks: old technolgy rules

Metaralph Stenvaag is Online

Northlight Sodwind: It may eventually

Terence McKenna: One of the key problems is energy, the second is closing the material flow

loops.

Terence McKenna: Food production is part of it.

Nadezda Markova: everyone seems to be waiting for some magic solution-- some discovery that

solves everything

Northlight Sodwind: Trouble is the AK45 is quite old :-(

Khannea Suntzu: Well china also has tens of thousands of astma/lung disease deaths per year.

That whole coal fetish will change, dont you worry.

Terence McKenna: Nadzda, there's no magic. We just need small increases in existing

technology.

Bodger Brooks: AK45 does what it is supposed to do efficently

You: yes, nadezda! i am worried that we are so trained to want one thing

Bodger Brooks: coal fired powerstations do not

Nadezda Markova: I agree totally Terence. If governments are willing to move

You: we won't act enough on all the things we need to do

Metaralph Stenvaag: hello

Metaralph Stenvaag: sorry I'm late

You: Hi meta

Bodger Brooks: It is the people, not governments that need to have the will to move

Bodger Brooks: we vote tehm in

faeryraindancer Ninetails: one problem is waiting for govts to fix things FOR us

Bodger Brooks: If you want change you need to lobby your representitive

faeryraindancer Ninetails: WE have the power to change

Terence McKenna: The role of goverments is bootstrap markets by subsidies, and use the

legislation to force people to change.

Khannea Suntzu laughs at the faith in governments.

faeryraindancer Ninetails: decide what YOU can do to improve

Nadezda Markova: yet in the US at least, these issues are not on the main agenda

Tabatha Cale: exactly

Terence McKenna: If you want change, do it both politically, and locally.

Bodger Brooks: lobby

Khannea Suntzu: Governments are slaves to voters. NOOOOO change to be expected from there.

Nadezda Markova: everyone might mention them somewhere--or not, depending on party-- but no

one seems to take it to heart

Bodger Brooks: bug them, annoy them, just keep at them

Bodger Brooks: poltitions will eventuially do something just to get you off their backs

Tabatha Cale: locally is the best way to start... i have a project in a small town close to

my city.. and it is working as it is local...

faeryraindancer Ninetails: and meanwhile, change YOURSELF

You: well in the US i'd say governments are slaves to business, and it was their choice to

be come so

Terence McKenna: Didn't Ireland outlaw incandescents lately?

Khannea Suntzu: This day oil prices increased to 1.55 euro per liter over here. Angry oil

consumers, apparantly oblivious to global developments, became angry and beat up the people

working at petrol stations.. How flexibleminded is that.

Bodger Brooks: us government is a slave to business, busniness sell to us, we get to make a choice who we buy from

You: Ah, so maybe I can break in here with a question about Earth day and SL?

faeryraindancer Ninetails: kk

Bodger Brooks: ultimately as neetaill aiid,, WE need to dosomething

You: in the interest of changing ourselves

You: and sharing what we are doing

Terence McKenna: Oil went over $100.xy the third time today, IIRC.

You: it seems like SL is good for that

You: I think a bunch of sims are doing things for earth day

faeryraindancer Ninetails: cool!

Terence McKenna: One of political changes is a fossil fuel tax ratchet, with the result being piped directly into renewable subsidies and R&D.

You: and i wonder if there is a way we can make it bigger by perhaps publicizing all of them

together

Terence McKenna: Volatility is bad. There need to be a price ratchet, so people could plan long-term.

You: a sort of earth day quest

faeryraindancer Ninetails: that wouldbe fabu1

Khannea Suntzu: Change will not come by good intentions. We live in a giant pinata. Only market mechanisms will change anything. It sucks but it is unavoidable. As soon as we have governments decisive enough to act, enforce policies you can bet your as these governments willstart displaying fascist pelts the next election year and start enforcing some screwy agenda.

Tabatha Cale: oh my, i have to go... it so interesting this discussion... if you publish a resume please let me know!

You: I will put up the log of discussion on oneclimate.net

Khannea Suntzu: kk

Terence McKenna: Thank you, Jessika.

Northlight Sodwind: tc

You: sure thing

Nadezda Markova: just as a sidenote, Mccain has a lifetime score of zero on the environment, Obama has 86, Clinton 87

Terence McKenna: A question: how many of us here present live a low burn lifestyle? What have you changed, personally?

Metaralph Stenvaag: Hi - I came late - don't want to interrupt - but I am curious who you are - IM me (I'm the director of the Marlboro MBA in Managing for Sustainability)

Nadezda Markova: oops Mccain lifetime 24, zero last year

Khannea Suntzu: The average SL player ADDITIONALLY consumes as much energy as the average brasilian - so NO

You: living in SF has made it easier for me to change, things like always having a bag with me

You: wow, Khannea, that number is interesting

Northlight Sodwind: zero fo a lifetime. The guy wasnt breathing ?? :-)

Terence McKenna: Khan, that's true, of course, but there's a far cry to the average USian with 3 SUVs parked in front of the McMansion.

You: someone mentioned this would be a good research paper and i agree

Metaralph Stenvaag: Khannea, can you elaborate?

Nadezda Markova: no, it's 24 for his lifetime-- which is very low. The zero was last year-- running for Pres seems to have reduced his interest

Terence McKenna: A server has the same footpring as an SUV.

Terence McKenna: footprint, even.

Khannea Suntzu: Servers consume electricity. SL is a very nonsustainable affair.

Nadezda Markova: computers use tremendous amount of energy

faeryraindancer Ninetails: I have always been conscious of how my choices affect the enviroment...problem is now that medical conditions have upped my required energy consumption

Northlight Sodwind: sorry, I cant accept that his campaign team is that low.

Terence McKenna: Not just in operation, in production too.

Bodger Brooks: but it depends if Sl stoops people frofly to meet other people

Terence McKenna: Bodger, it's lots better than to fly, of course.

Terence McKenna: Or to drive, even.

Nadezda Markova: plus disposal of computers-- they're thrown into landfill at least in NY-- and toxic substances leach into ground

Bodger Brooks: If you an meet here wihotdrviig th SUV 5 miles is ittmore sustainbale?

Khannea Suntzu: Just live you life people. Just don't be an idiot and buy a SUV or go on six vacations a year. We'll make it, tyhough it may get hairy between 2010 and 2030.

Northlight Sodwind: SL compared to watching TV ?

Terence McKenna: Bodger, I walk and talk public transport :)

Terence McKenna: take

Bodger Brooks: I wasn't meaning you personnally

Khannea Suntzu: I dont even have a drivers licence. I hate cars.

Sage Truss is Online

Bodger Brooks: and I cycle by the way :-)

faeryraindancer Ninetails: no drivers license here either :)

Terence McKenna: I do too, Bodger. In the summer.

Khannea Suntzu: I always hated cars. I always felt extremely suspicious of the bizare quantities of cars, even when I was a kid.

Bodger Brooks: I cycled to the first week in december in Scotland...it was rather cold

Terence McKenna: I've moved to HQI and LED lighting at home.

Nadezda Markova: in NY, for e xample, the mayor tried to introduce pricing to reduce cars in the city-- everyone was outraged-- and although a minimal plan may be enacted, it hardly restricts driving in the city at all

You: ah, i am afraid i do drive, a hybrid, but none the less have not been able to get rid of it altogehter

Bodger Brooks: haven't got up the bottle yet to start agian though ;-)

Khannea Suntzu: Terence are there already affordable platpanel led lights? 1000_ Lumens?

Nadezda Markova: we need public support for mass transportation

You: NY will just have to keep raising the price, like London until it hits the pain point

Khannea Suntzu: Bear in mind that vehicle fuels cost the equivalent of EIGHT dollars in europe.

Khannea Suntzu: The US will suffer extreme pain weaning away from low oil costs.

You: yes, the US is really bad for long distance public transport, alhtough some cities have good commuting systems

Terence McKenna: Nadezda, yes. Public transport is the shiznit.

Khannea Suntzu: Well as far as I can judge the current US is completely unsustainable.

Terence McKenna: Not just the US.

You: absolutely

Nadezda Markova: I don't know about other cities, but in NY the infrastructure has been neglected for so long, that the subways are constantly being repaired just to stay minimally operative

Terence McKenna: 98% of humanity is nonsustainable.

PeterSan Slade: i wonder if people will start making different choices about where to work and whether to move away from family members

Northlight Sodwind: IF u have a city that was built when most people had cars. The houses are too spread out to walk much.

You: that is a big question for me actually

Terence McKenna: Telepresence might be an answer to the commuter problem.

Nadezda Markova: I fear that conditions will have to change-- material conditions that is-- before people change choices

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Nadezda Markova: we'll only react when our living conditions are so deeply affected that we can't ignore it

PeterSan Slade: for us too - our son lives in Boston and we live in the UK

Northlight Sodwind: Buy a house in the city centre while prices are low

Terence McKenna: Insolation upon suburbia is enough to be energetically self-sufficient, using current technology.

Khannea Suntzu: Terence... can you give me an estimate how much jobs will disappear between 2015 and 2030? And what the effects of that will be? You estimate...?

Terence McKenna: City centers are not sustainable.

You: right, i in SF, and the rest of my family back east. As I look for a job I am wondering if i need to move back so i don't have to fly so much

Terence McKenna: Khannea, no idea. But blood will flow through the streets. Automation is killing jobs.

PeterSan Slade: we don;t see him much, and miss him and his children - our grandchildrenare growing up on the other side of the Atlantic

Metaralph Stenvaag: good bye!

Khannea Suntzu: I could suggest our societies in bigger problems because of unemployment than sustainability even.

Metaralph Stenvaag is Offline

Terence McKenna: Byes.

Northlight Sodwind: bye meta

Anuradha Selene: bye

Nadezda Markova: with globalization, I wonder if changes aren't in the other direction-- more distance, not less

Terence McKenna: Globalization encourages pointless transport.

Terence McKenna: However, small scale production could turn that back.

Khannea Suntzu: Imagine if half existing jobs would be destroyed between 2015 and 2025. That would be a LOT higher political priority than ecological or resource depletion issues.

Nadezda Markova: if we do hit a wall, then changes could be made

Terence McKenna: Khannea, the loss of jobs can be hidden by lots of cosmetics.

Khannea Suntzu: If we do hit a wall people will die nadezka

You: if we changed our expectations, ie fix things rather then buy new

Khannea Suntzu nods

PeterSan Slade: topdown economic growth -led globalization, that is. but human globalisation in the sense of us all becoming more aware of each other could have the opposite effect

Khannea Suntzu: Yah

Nadezda Markova: don't get me wrong-- I don't advocate it-- I'm just concerned

You: we could have more local jobs supporting each other's use of stuff

Northlight Sodwind: but with sustainability u dont need so many paid jobs. Many a family has been suported by home grown / cooked / made with paid industry makeing the things the family or neighbours couldnt.

Terence McKenna: Even now the official unemployment figures differ a lot from statistics utilized e.g. during the Great Depression.

You: and globalization would be just sharing ideas

Terence McKenna: Northlight, barter doesn't scale.

Khannea Suntzu: Northlight, what if a robot does *everything* better and more efficient than a human, including growing crops? Then we would be sociologically screwed.

Terence McKenna: You have to use some abstract currency, even in micro-transactions.

Northlight Sodwind: The is a whole world "economy" that never apears in a countrys finances

Nadezda Markova: barter would be moving backwards tremendously-- I can't see that as a prospect, under current situation

Terence McKenna: Northlight, if we all go back to subsistence farming, we're going to to die on a very large scale.

You: there are alots of options for other currencies which are beneficial

Terence McKenna: We can't go back. We can't stay where we are. We must go forward.

Khannea Suntzu: Subsistence farming will kill people to begin with. It's too hard work for half our citizens.

Northlight Sodwind: who makes the robot. and who comes at dead of night and breaks it ?

PeterSan Slade: global LETS is a kind of time based bartering

Nadezda Markova: I'm with Terence. What conditons will prod citizens to care about the issue-- that's what I don't see

You: and where is the material coming from to make the Robot

Nadezda Markova: a few concerned people just can't stir a mass movement

You: Japan alone is supposed to have over 100 alternative currencies

Terence McKenna: Northlight, self-replication is being worked on right now. If robots build robots, and if UAEs roam the skies, nobody will break the robots. The robots will break people.

You: a bunch of them are specifically around caring for elderly parents

Nadezda Markova: Jessika, what do you mean by "alternative currencies"?

Terence McKenna: Lindens are an alternative currency.

You: I need to get going, but just want to let people know where they can find a trancript of this

You: oneclimate.net and search for Groups -> Susty, we'll meet up again next thurs

Northlight Sodwind: but the robots can only work with technical and financial support. If people cant afford to buy the product. no robot.

You: thanks all, very interesting

Khannea Suntzu: I can easily envision, and I am very much certain that in a few decades robotics or automated systems can be made that are more productive *around the clock* than human equivalents. They grow more food. They are more dilligent workers. In fact they would make the world a paradize, IF WE GOT RID OF CATALISM.

Anuradha Selene: thanks so much Jessica

PeterSan Slade: bye jessica, good to see you

Nadezda Markova: thanks Jessika

Anuradha Selene: see many of you next week I hope

You: oh and i love talking about currencies, i'll try and bring some research next week to share Nadezffa

Terence McKenna: Northlight, machines can build a self-sustaining economy. Machines don't need people. This is one of the dangers we're up against.

You: Nadezda that is

Nadezda Markova: bye, see you then!

Anuradha Selene: bye

Khannea Suntzu: I am worried about a small, scary global elite that doesn't need all these people.

Anuradha Selene: bye all

Terence McKenna: Just because right now robots can't mine ore and build more robots, it doesn't mean in 30, 50 years we don't have that problem.